Linguistics lesson with a side of history

"ImmoralMinority" (araimondo)
08/04/2019 at 20:49 • Filed to: None

The phrase “to call a spade a spade” originated in ancient Greece, with Plutarch. Its first use in English was in 1542, in a translation of Erasmus, who was Dutch. The word “spade” in the phrase is used as the earth moving tool, and is the same in several languages. The phrase means blunt talk, and has for hundreds of years . It appeared in an American dictionary as early as 1913.

The term “spade” as an ethnic slur was first recorded in 1928. People often avoid Plutarch’s idiom in modern times so as not to be misunderstood. People who don’t know any better think “call a spade a spade” is racist. It is not.

I know this because I once called out a professor for being racist for using it when I was young and stupid. Boy, did I learn a lesson that day. Tuition well spent.

DISCUSSION (26)

Goggles Pizzano > ImmoralMinority
08/04/2019 at 20:53

I know this because I once called out a professor for being racist for using it when I was young and stupid.

This post has honesty in spades.

AestheticsInMotion > ImmoralMinority
08/04/2019 at 21:00

I've never heard of spade being a racial slur

My X-type is too a real Jaguar > ImmoralMinority
08/04/2019 at 21:02

Anyone want to sell some schedule 1 narcotics? Too Funny

Aremmes > ImmoralMinority
08/04/2019 at 21:31

The phrase may not have a racist meaning, and many of the contexts in which it is used may similarly not be intended to be racist, however language does not remain fixed in place. Words and phrases change meanings over time according to how people use them. Discounting others’ remarks solely on the basis of some prior status dismisses and devalues the thoughts and words of those here in the now.

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > AestheticsInMotion
08/04/2019 at 21:39

Me neither.

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > ImmoralMinority
08/04/2019 at 21:48

The two funny things about this particular idiom is that a) in it s spade calling spade arrangement noted here I’ve always taken the viewpoint of ‘well... why wouldn’t you?’ which seems to render the idiom a bit meaningless; and b) it is not uncommon here to reword the idiom to ‘call a spade a shovel’. This variant has a number of interpretations (I’m not afraid to be wrong and it's still a digging implement anyway... for example) for its arrangement but the one I like best is that it ‘pisses off the intellectuals’.

MrSnrub > ImmoralMinority
08/04/2019 at 22:10

You’re not wrong, but can you honestly say this thread and your replies in the other one this is calling out are examples of excellent behavior?

nermal > ImmoralMinority
08/04/2019 at 22:12

Now that we’ve cleared that up..... Is saying that people that are offended by “calling a spade a spade” are simply “grasping at straws” ok?

Since you can now buy official Trump Straws, I’m initially inclined to think that “grasping at straws” is racist.

Kinja'd!!!

However, on the official Trump website there is a picture of a black person using one:

Kinja'd!!!

I think the only rational conclusion here is to simply be offended.... by everything. So that’s what I’m going with.

facw > AestheticsInMotion
08/04/2019 at 22:35

IIRC, it comes from the phrase “Black as the ace of spades”. It’s definitely out there, and not while certainly not the most vile slur, not a great one to use easily.

facw > ImmoralMinority
08/04/2019 at 22:38

Tuition well spent.

Good thing you weren’t a niggard when funding your education.

Also, I’m pretty sure I read that Plutarch’s “ call a spade a spade” was probably originally intended to be read as innuendo.

TheRealBicycleBuck > ImmoralMinority
08/04/2019 at 23:34

I found myself in hot water after asking a young black student to fetch a tool from my truck while we were both volunteering at a church event. His dad called me that evening and chewed me out for treating his son like a dog. I had to explain to him that the word “fetch” means to go get something and bring it back, as in a pail of water or a data package. It’s a word I’ve used with my own kids.

The father was thoroughly convinced that I was treating his kid like a dog since he’d never used “fetch” in any context other than playing with his dog. I’ve never told my dog to fetch. I always use the phrase, “get it.”

Every person interprets the world around them through their own experiences. Unfortunately, many of those experiences change the meaning of commonly used words and phrases. That’s why I try not to assume what someone means and ask clarifying questions before I get upset.

To be fair, “spade” has been used as a derogatory term in the past. Some people will always dredge up that meaning, no matter how it is being used. Perhaps we should just call a spade a bloody shovel .

AestheticsInMotion > SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media
08/04/2019 at 23:47

Idiom rearrangements and mashups a re the bees’ knees. I personally like “we’ll cross that bridge when it burns”

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > AestheticsInMotion
08/05/2019 at 02:05

H ell yes. One of my uncle’s versions of that was " We’ll cross that bridge when they build it. Then we'll burn it down so no other bugger can get across."

LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com > SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media
08/05/2019 at 06:55

I’m fond of saying, “We’ll burn that bridge when we come to it.” Right at the time when people are expecting me to say something to keep us focused like, “We’ll cross that bridge when we come to it.”

Ash78, voting early and often > TheRealBicycleBuck
08/05/2019 at 08:03

It’s possible — but not too likely — that the word evoked the famous actor “Stepin Fetchit” with the dad.

Critics seems pretty torn about whether he was a black hero for taking his career so far, or just a tool of the white production companies for playing into a stereotype and perpetuating racism:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepin_Fetchit

Ash78, voting early and often > ImmoralMinority
08/05/2019 at 08:04

I seriously thought this was a reference to card games, since so many of those have influenced mainstream culture (from saying “Ace in the Hole” to the show Full House )

AdverseMartyr > nermal
08/05/2019 at 08:06

I think you have the wrong username for being offended at everything. Unless, you just came back from a trip to Abu Dhabi in a box.

wkiernan > ImmoralMinority
08/05/2019 at 09:10

I don’t buy this argument at all; too cute by half. You seem to claim that when Trump used the phrase “call a spade a spade” he was thinking of its meaning in the sense that it was used by Plutarch and by Erasmus’s translator, rather than the sense it was used when he was growing up and learning the English language. I am entirely sure that Trump has never read Plutarch or Erasmus, and that he used the phrase in precisely the same sense as his father Fred Trump used it.

We’ve all seen Trump coming right up to the edge of saying something blatantly racist and then back off and claim he meant something else by some tortuous interpretation of his exact words. This fools no one, but it isn’t meant to fool anyone, it’s a wink and a nod to his racist base and spit in the eyes of his critics.

Feel free to rebut this with some comment about my putative emotions.

TheRealBicycleBuck > Ash78, voting early and often
08/05/2019 at 10:30

It could be. I’d never heard of the guy before. Since the father and I are of a similar age, I’d be surprised if he had either, but you never know!